Finley, the pug ….Newbie.

[Fin2010]

Hi Everyone, I’m brandnew here with my 11 year old pug Finley just having been diagnosed on 1/3/2022.He was put on Vetsulin twice a day (presently at 7 IU) immediately as his BG was well over 500 (no ketones).

I’ve spent the last two weeks educating myself on diabetes and I understand it takes a while, but I can’t find much information on the hindleg weakness, the shortness of breath/cough/apnea type episodes, and the overall mopey disposition he currently displays. He’s responding well to the Vetsulin in that his number are down and range from 320 (right before insulin) to 145 (insulin peak) during a 24 hr period (for the last 2 days). We are still fine tuning and he wears a Libre.

But I don’t see much difference with his lethargy, his hindlegs, I believe he already lost most his eyesight (in treatment for eye issues related to diabetes) nor his breathing. I ran all possible diagnostics available to us on 1/3/22 when he was diagnosed. Lungs look fine, legs are atrophied (but he’s already in rehab for that since atrophy began about 3 months ago and we falsely attributed it to his age). We did ultrasound, X-rays, and aside from an UTI (also being treated), he is fine. Btw, in Oct 2021 we did a full CBC and no diabetes…but I started seeing off signs as early as mid—November.

How long does the hindleg weakness last? He sways, stumbles and falls a few times a day, tho I do believe it got a little better. His vet said neuropathy mainly happens in cats, but he’s had other cat side effects from illnesses and meds before and I saw here that there are other dogs struggling with this.

He’s also very slow now and seems confused half the time. Seems mopey and not interested in anything but food after about 7 am. It’s like he crashes mentally and physically for the rest of the day even tho his BG is decent. Also, I check daily for ketones — none.

His breathing is still strange but his lungs are fine. The wet cough sounds like he’s trying to cough up phlegm. His vet thinks because he has a currently enlarged liver, it may be pressing on his diaphragm but it freaks me out to watch him. The episodes are short but some days are frequent. No heart disease, saw a cardio in June.

Does anyone have any input on the time frame of the neuropathy, the mental fog, the cough/breathing? I would so appreciate it. Just for my own peace of mind ….

[Riliey and Mo]

Re: Finley, the pug ….Newbie.

hi and welcome

sorry i posted earlier but it didnt get posted anyway

please post his weight.

back leg neuropathy does go away closer to being regulated. vit b12 helps

breathing problems, being tired are smtoms of ketoacidosis. are you keeping intouch with your vet and doing weekly curves.?

it would be helpful to use a portable humidifier to help with the dry heat if you have this.

Lethargy is one of the symptoms of uncontrolled/poorly controlled canine or feline diabetes. Untreated or not adequately treated, the diabetic's tissues are unable to use glucose, amino acids and fatty acids properly[1]. It normally resolves quickly after starting insulin therapy.

think you ll see the blood sugar normalizing once the UTI is finished also the antibiotics. the infection is raising his blood sugar .

i.m assuming the 7 units to start is a higher dose because of the infection ,to be careful of a bg drop when the antibiotics are stopped. we need his weight please.

[Fin2010]

Re: Finley, the pug ….Newbie.

He’s 22 lbs. His ideal weight is 20.5 lbs.

I am in contact with his vet daily - we are about 12 days into treatment. She gets all the information from the Libre sent directly to her. I’ve just not gotten good feedback on the lethargy/weakness stuff.

As for ketoacidosis, I check ketones daily and there were none in the original tests at the vets and at his specialists. He has IBD and so he’s on food for that … he’s a pretty complicated guy with 4 bouts of pancreatitis last year, then IBD, and previously also diagnosed with late onset idiopathic epilepsy.

He’s on Tylosin and Budesonide for the IBD. Gabapentin, Potassium Bromide, Topamax for Refractory Epilepsy (took 2 years to get controlled).

PS: he has an appointment this Tuesday for blood recheck.

[Riliey and Mo]

Re: Finley, the pug ….Newbie.

Methylcobalamin is found to be very effective in treating dogs with diabetic neuropathy. Although not common in dogs, this condition can occur with diabeties and is very painful and debilitating. Due to consistently elevated blood sugar levels in the dog's body, nerves become damaged and limbs can become weak and even numb.

this methyl vit b ask you vet about it works good to help restore use in back legs

[Riliey and Mo]

Re: Finley, the pug ….Newbie.

the libres have proven to be helpful but arent as accurate as using a handheld meter and doing home curves. the high bg readings are false as the low readings

getting a good glucose meter and home testing will make you more incontrol of Finley,s diabetes.

Finley could also still be producing insulin. monitoring him closly at first.

[Riliey and Mo]

Re: Finley, the pug ….Newbie.

keep your eye out if his breathing gets worse, he might need to change insulins. novolin nph is good.

allergic rection to Vetinsulin pork or pork products

hives, swelling lips and tongue, breathing problems

[Fin2010]

Re: Finley, the pug ….Newbie.

Methylcobalamin is found to be very effective in treating dogs with diabetic neuropathy. Although not common in dogs, this condition can occur with diabeties and is very painful and debilitating. Due to consistently elevated blood sugar levels in the dog's body, nerves become damaged and limbs can become weak and even numb.

this methyl vit b ask you vet about it works good to help restore use in back legs

Actually, thanks to you guys on here I made a note of it and emailed my vet a couple days ago, just waiting to hear back if there’s any reason Fin cannot get those shots. If there’s none, I’ll definitely want to get him started. If the neuropathy is painful like you say, maybe the moping and general absentmindedness and confusion comes from that. Thank you for the response.

[Fin2010]

Re: Finley, the pug ….Newbie.

it would be helpful to use a portable humidifier to help with the dry heat if you have this.

think you ll see the blood sugar normalizing once the UTI is finished also the antibiotics. the infection is raising his blood sugar .

i.m assuming the 7 units to start is a higher dose because of the infection ,to be careful of a bg drop when the antibiotics are stopped. we need his weight please.

We originally started him on 2 units, then 3, 4, 5, 6 and saw nothing until 6. I didn’t know this about the Libre and will ask about handheld meters and curves … we got a great specialist and she may have wanted to give him a break on needle pricks because he had so many hospitalization with the pancreatitis and IBD last year.

I do have a humidifier running at night. I read about that and it actually helps. I notice a difference when I forget to turn it on.

I also didn’t know about the antibiotics raising BG … he’s got a couple pretty resistant bacteria strains and we are treating with two weeks of Baytril. I’ll make sure I’ll ask about that too since I have about 5 days of Baytril left.

I’ve been on him like a hawk … I actually took off 2 weeks from work just so I can watch him and make sure he’s safe with the insulin and BG changes. As for bis 22 lbs, he’s on a very monitored and specific diet and has been for a while. Because of his epilepsy, he’s been on medication that also leads to weight gain so it’s not been easy keeping his weight down. I know we hve to be careful losing weight and giving insulin. So i am keeping that in mind as well. He’s definitely a special needs boy.

[jesse girl]

Re: Finley, the pug ….Newbie.

Its not unusual for a newly diagnosed dog to be lethargic . Not sure why but injected insulin probably is a bit hard on a dog and the body has to adapt

If a dog is in the mid 300s and then drops to the mid 100s and climb back to the mid 300s probably doesn't feel very good .

As Mo suggested the methyl B-12 seems to have some benefits from what we have seen on the forum but your dog is older so it not unusual to see this in a non diabetic dog but the diabetes maybe exacerbating the situation .Either way improvement can be slow but most seem to get better . May not be as it was

Stable regulation usually will help . For me I like to see swings in sugar less than 200 from high to low and low to high .

Also the 7 units maybe a bit hard on your pup . my jesse could never take more than 3 units at a time which led to 3 shots a day . My theory is the insulin never fully agreed with her but who knows for sure

Remember vets can only do so much and you have to do most of the work as your pup is with you 99 percent of the time . You are more aware of how your dog feels

Your off to a good start showing insulin is impacting higher sugar which is good .

[Fin2010]

Re: Finley, the pug ….Newbie.

If a dog is in the mid 300s and then drops to the mid 100s and climb back to the mid 300s probably doesn't feel very good .

Stable regulation usually will help . For me I like to see swings in sugar less than 200 from high to low and low to high .

Also the 7 units maybe a bit hard on your pup .

Thank you so much for the reply. We were able to mellow out his curve quite a bit (keep it between 150 and 300) and we think he’s somewhere around 6.5. When we do 7 he drops low (like he did today by going to 89 suddenly before I gave him 1/2 a meal). We are going to do a few days of just 6.5 but May end up with 6.5 am and 7.0 pm. That seems to be his number. Actually my vet was surprised how well he was doing after only 2 weeks.

We started B12 shots but I now see regular B12 isn’t the same as methyl B12. I specifically asked if he was getting Methyl and was told yes… I’m not so sure tho.

He was also on Baytril for a nasty UTI and part of me thinks he was having additional problem from the Baytril. When he was 3 years old he reacted to Baytril and we immediately stopped but this time they thought they would give it another shot because of the bacteria strains in his urine. 😬 We shall see.

[Riliey and Mo]

Re: Finley, the pug ….Newbie.

good job catching the low.

6.5 sounds good for 7 days then curving. i wouldnt inject 7units at night ,you might not catch the low. but doing a curve will catch it then reduce.

batril, having to stop it once might not be a good idea along with starting diabetes insulin.

is there another uti antibiotic to use.?

i dont understand the 89 low before half a meal. does he get fed 1/2 meal and when was the 89 please?

yes your doing great in your first 2 weeks!

[k9diabetes]

Re: Finley, the pug ….Newbie.

Have any of the things you mentioned below improved?

Regarding hind leg weakness, my experience over the years shows that weakness related solely to high blood sugar in dogs comes from sustained very high blood sugar and gradually improves once the blood sugar is in a decent range.

But what often happens is there are other stressors on communication over the spinal cord, which seems likely with Finley. And in those cases, even moderately high blood sugar can lead to weakness because it adds a layer to whatever else is already going on.

And I would expect that extra layer to improve somewhat after blood sugar is better for a while.

How is the lethargy and breathing now?

Allergies to foods and medications can make them feel poorly too. Usually with insulin, NPH is more likely to cause an allergy because it contains a protein. But dogs sometimes just respond to one kind of insulin better than another. So if his blood sugar gets under control but he's still lethargic, that's something to consider.

If you have access to a veterinary neurologist, they can be simple non-invasive tests to determine where the weakness is coming from and whether it's spinal or perhaps brain related. Vestibular syndrome is something that can cause dizziness, making them unable to stand and unsteady on their feet. Subtle differences that can't be sorted out over the phone and are unlikely to be well understood by any GP vet.

Our diabetic dog had what was ultimately determined to be a TMI (transient stroke). We had a better than average vet and he noted that some of his symptoms looked like vestibular and but others didn't, so sent us straight to a neurologist. I have seen neurologists be invaluable, even if just for a one time consult, in clearing up what's happening with symptoms you describe.

Natalie

Hi Everyone, I’m brandnew here with my 11 year old pug Finley just having been diagnosed on 1/3/2022.He was put on Vetsulin twice a day (presently at 7 IU) immediately as his BG was well over 500 (no ketones).

I’ve spent the last two weeks educating myself on diabetes and I understand it takes a while, but I can’t find much information on the hindleg weakness, the shortness of breath/cough/apnea type episodes, and the overall mopey disposition he currently displays. He’s responding well to the Vetsulin in that his number are down and range from 320 (right before insulin) to 145 (insulin peak) during a 24 hr period (for the last 2 days). We are still fine tuning and he wears a Libre.

But I don’t see much difference with his lethargy, his hindlegs, I believe he already lost most his eyesight (in treatment for eye issues related to diabetes) nor his breathing. I ran all possible diagnostics available to us on 1/3/22 when he was diagnosed. Lungs look fine, legs are atrophied (but he’s already in rehab for that since atrophy began about 3 months ago and we falsely attributed it to his age). We did ultrasound, X-rays, and aside from an UTI (also being treated), he is fine. Btw, in Oct 2021 we did a full CBC and no diabetes…but I started seeing off signs as early as mid—November.

How long does the hindleg weakness last? He sways, stumbles and falls a few times a day, tho I do believe it got a little better. His vet said neuropathy mainly happens in cats, but he’s had other cat side effects from illnesses and meds before and I saw here that there are other dogs struggling with this.

He’s also very slow now and seems confused half the time. Seems mopey and not interested in anything but food after about 7 am. It’s like he crashes mentally and physically for the rest of the day even tho his BG is decent. Also, I check daily for ketones — none.

His breathing is still strange but his lungs are fine. The wet cough sounds like he’s trying to cough up phlegm. His vet thinks because he has a currently enlarged liver, it may be pressing on his diaphragm but it freaks me out to watch him. The episodes are short but some days are frequent. No heart disease, saw a cardio in June.

Does anyone have any input on the time frame of the neuropathy, the mental fog, the cough/breathing? I would so appreciate it. Just for my own peace of mind ….