Senior Yorkiepoo introduction

[MaryLea]

It's been ages since I've posted! I now foster with a Yorkie Rescue group and have Ruby, a senior Yorkiepoo who became diabetic due to steroid treatments needed after intake. She's had surgery for luaxated patella early on, and more recently for bladder stones. Along the way, she was positive for EPI. So she's become a medically special needs dog and unadoptable. She's sweet but requires much attention. Unbelievably, I've had her for 3 years! No one has applied to adopt her and gone through with it.

She takes thyroid and appetite stimulant every morning but is a poor eater, even with toppers. That's sad because she ate really fast when we got her. She gets enzyme tablets and liver tabs 15 minutes before her meals. Of course, she's supposed to have low fat kibble (Royal Canin gastro) but we are still mixing it with Hills w/d and dribbling plain chicken broth over it. She gets boiled chicken added in when she stops eating the kibble, and we use canned glycobalance (her older Rx) to round out a meal when necessary. Even so, she doesn't always eat full meals now. For an 8 pound EPI dog, we were told to aim for 188 calories per meal. That was sustaining her right at 8 pounds when she ate better. She gets 1/4 carprofen after every meal to help with her back legs.

I test fasting BG every morning and night, and keep a record. Have not done a curve recently since her eating is irregular. But the FBGs are sometimes in the 300s or even 400s. That was not the pattern when she was eating more consistently on glycobalance, but she was having pancreatic episodes. So we began the search for lower fat foods.

I'm at a loss as to what else to try. We've done all the usual from baby food to you-name-it except home cooking; haven't tried that yet. She acts like there is still life in her although she sleeps alot. Other functions besides eating are normal except she pants alot. Does not seem to be in pain. The rescue's vet is about ready to test her for Cushings because of the high BGs, panting, and loss of appetite.

I apologize for the long post. But does any of this raise flags for any of you? She's only the second diabetic dog I've had. The first was Ruffles, who brought me to this site years ago. (I recognize some of your screen names from then!)

Thanks for taking time to read this. I'll be glad to fill in the blanks of her story as we go along.

[jesse girl]

Re: Senior Yorkiepoo introduction

I fed my Jesse only one meal for most of her 11 year diabetic life and a milk bone type snack . She had great regulation with this method . It worked well with other digestive issues she had and only had pancreatitis when she first became diabetic . If it's something that may work for your pup I can give you a bit more on the particulars .

I do understand the challenges of a special needs dog and how you have to adapt . Most things you have to figure on your own to make a unique situation work .

[MaryLea]

Re: Senior Yorkiepoo introduction

Hi, Jesse girl! I remember Jesse and am sorry to see she earned her wings. I have not considered feeding only one meal a day. Never thought about it. I don't know if it would work for Ruby or not. Being EPI, she would have to eat a really large meal to maintain her weight. Can you tell me if Jesse had a condition that led you to feed once daily? I don't recall reading about any other diabetic dog being fed once a day. Can you tell me a little more of her story, please? I'm curious!

[Riliey and Mo]

Re: Senior Yorkiepoo introduction

hello Marylea and Ruby.

i must of joined here alittle later then you.

there two things i was looking at

the meds before meals on an empty stomach, maybe try giving them after food.
also you say she was more consistent on glycobalance. did she like it, gobblle it up?
her food is a variety and not consistent as you say. can you back to the glycobalance? i read awhile back it wasnt wvailable.

theres also mixed foods like Stewies and honest kitchen where you add the protein.

your doing great with Ruby. those numbers are all that high.

[MaryLea]

Re: Senior Yorkiepoo introduction

Thanks for your response. We give the enzymes before meals because she is EPI and needs them to digest her food. The carprofen is always after meals because that will upset her stomach if it is empty.

We are limited by her best food choices, which she is not eating right now. She refuses to read and obey the memo! She needs low fat due to tendency to pancreatitis and she needs a factor added which will help her not have stones in her urine again. Canned glycobalance has that factor. Glycobalance kibble does not. Hills w/d has it, but is higher in fat than Royal Canin gastro low fat.

She's been eating a mix of the w/d and Royal Canin when she eats. Plus boiled chicken. When she doesn't eat enough kibble for a meal we revert to canned glycobalance, which is not really a good choice. But it's that or she doesn't eat any carbs. She can't live on chicken.

Tonight we are back on the gurgling tummy, almost pancreatitis. I know it's because we haven't been able to make the switch to lower fat food. Gave her a half Cerenia and offered chicken and mushy white rice. She ate some of that but not a full meal. Gave a reduced insulin dose. Hopefully the Cerenia will settle her system down by in the morning and she'll eat better. Will offer chicken and rice again until I can tell she's better.

[MomtoMax]

Re: Senior Yorkiepoo introduction

Hello,
I can help WRT the EPI as I’ve had an EPI GSD who lived with EPI her whole life and it’s not what took her from us… Is your pup on any B12? I ask because you mentioned inappetence. Almost 80% of dogs with EPI have low cobalamin levels and require supplementation. Inappetence is indicative of low B12.
The tummy rumbling is also indicative of SIBO (small intestine bacterial overgrowth), which is now called SID. Virtually all EPI dogs have this and while some may resolve this issue on their own, others need a course of Tylan (not Metrodonazole, which used to be prescribed, but no longer as it kills all bacteria, good and bad) to get it under control.
You mentioned you are using the tablets, which I presume are Viokase or Panacare? We never had luck with them and used powder. Do you crush them and soak them with the food? You didn’t mention stools, so I assume they are well formed?
You are correct in that the load of food once a day would be too much, so I wouldn’t think feeding once a day is a good option…

Donna and Max the diabetic and renal failure Corgi

[jesse girl]

Re: Senior Yorkiepoo introduction

Tried to delete

[jesse girl]

Re: Senior Yorkiepoo introduction

Jesse did not have a diagnosed digestive issues but had soft stools sometimes with blood and rumbly belly . That all cleared up with one meal . My theory and the reason I went to this method is I thought reducing the amount of time digesting food would be easier on her digestive system by increasing the fasting time . We do understand the benefits of fasting . Also I thought blood sugar would improve for the time she did not eat but to my surprise it was good for the 24 hours and on 2 meals not good . It basically saved her life so to speak . I got lucky because this method was down the street away from the box

It's not unusual for dogs to eat one meal a day and you also will find humans doing it . Now for diabetic dogs it's unheard of for maybe Jesse and a few who followed . The sticking point is most believe you can't give insulin without food . That's a myth . Now another factor is a dog can't get enough calories from one meal . That's not true . As I said Jesse lived 11 years being diabetic on this method and the longest I have heard of . Like I said if not for dementia she would have gone longer past that 16.5 years

Now for your pup would he eat one hole meal having the digestive issues ? With Jesse's diet it was very nutritious being homemade and appetizing . She may have had a couple times in that 11 years she struggled to eat . Even with dementia forgetting how to eat she was very interest to consume . Just needed help . You don't want a food with a bunch of fillers and empty calories . Jesse's one meal did not look overwhelming and large .

You want to feed at a time most hungry . Jesse was in late afternoon and that was convenient . Definitely an easier strategy over 2 meals

As I suggested you can do 2 meals with different amounts depending on level of hunger and wanting to eat . That's a bit more complicated I think but others have done that

The key is doing what works in your reality . So many stick a square peg in a round hole because they are told to do so . There is allot of common sense in developing a method and sometimes that method can be art over science because each dog has their own unique situation . To me if it's hard and difficult it's time for a change

[MaryLea]

Re: Senior Yorkiepoo introduction

Thank you for your replies. I am reviewing everything about Ruby to see if there is anything else I could try. JesseGirl, I appreciate your summary and will reread it. As you say, it is "out of the box" but worked for you and Jesse. I do know we can give insulin when they don't eat, but a much-reduced dose. If I tried one meal a day, I would need to monitor that more carefully than I am at the moment, I'm sure. I usually test fasting BGs before every meal and ketones when she is over 300. She rarely has ketones, which is a blessing! They are usually none or sometimes a trace even when her BG is over 400.

Donna, I want to fill in some of the blanks and answer your questions. I called our vet and asked about tylan since Ruby is exhibiting symptoms of intestinal discomfort. He sent Metro last time and I did not use it because she calmed down on her own with Cerenia. I'm glad now that I waited! Part of my frustration is that since Ruby is a rescue, she is not legally my dog and I am limited by what their vet tells us to do. I often suggest things, which got me into hot water with a previous vet. I'm not sure what triggered that. We have two vet clinics, and switched her from one to the other, so there is a chance this vet will consider me a partner in the process. I certainly hope so!

We add the powder from Wonderlabs B12 caps to each meal, usually to the chicken because she is most likely to eat that, at least until the past couple of days. For her weight, about 1/4 tab per meal is suggested but we give 1/2 tab of the powder. We add Advita probiotic to every meal. Her stools are generally well formed. TMI: she will eat her poop if she is inside and we don't pick it up quickly, like at night. That throws her BGs up, making her hard to manage. She is pee pad trained but will go outside when we take her every couple of hours during the day. We give PancrePlus tabs cut into fourths with half a milk thistle tab also cut into fourths, both mixed with some shredded Pure Bites. She will eat that on her own; we switched to that because she quit eating food soaked in enzymes. Those tabs are given 15 minutes before each meal. Are you suggesting that we add them to her food? Would that be more effective for her EPI? The vet's instructions were to give 15 minutes before meals, but she eats so slowly......

[MomtoMax]

Re: Senior Yorkiepoo introduction

If Ruby’s stool is well formed, then I wouldn’t change a thing with the way you’re administering the enzymes! It’s just unusual that the tablets are working that well for you. When we first started our EPI journey, my girl was given the tablets and they didn’t do anything to help. We were up to about 6 or 7 a meal and still had a very poor stool. She didn’t respond until we used the powder and intubated her food in it for about 20 minutes. Most people who do use the tablets crush them and intubate then, but as the saying goes, if you’ve met one EPI dog, well then you’ve met just one as they are all different.

Regarding the Tylan, most vets don’t have the latest research that had been done on it from TAMU. If you go to EPI4DOGS.com, there is a section in there about Tylan vs Metro that has veterinary research about why it is better. The site owner had an EPI and Diabetic dog and she is an active participant on the forum. As a researcher herself, everything that is on her site has the research behind the recommendations. Perhaps if you printed out and showed the vet research, the vet might be more will willing to try it? Just a thought… At the time, the team of vets I worked with were extremely interested in stuff I researched. They’ve since retired and the team that replaced them will not look at anything I bring them. Their response is typical to many vets today: You can’t believe everything you read on the internet. So yes, I know what it’s like to tick off a vet!!! LOL Been there, done that and have the t-shirt! I no longer use them and have a team of holistic/traditional vets who do listen to me and respect me, but I understand why you cannot shop around.
Donna and Max the diabetic and renal failure Corgi

[MaryLea]

Re: Senior Yorkiepoo introduction

I found the EPI4DOGS but not the TAMU or tylan research. Their search tool produced neither. I must be missing something!

[MomtoMax]

Re: Senior Yorkiepoo introduction

At the top of the homepage, click on Managing EPI, then scroll down to the SID antibiotics link and after the poop pictures is the article in the Journal of Veterinary Internal Medicine. Hope this helps! I’d send you the link, but the site is being difficult for me currently…
Donna